A conversation with OpenSkies’ Dale Moss

Recently, I had the opportunity to sit down with Dale Moss, the managing director of OpenSkies, the planet’s newest airline flying between New York City and Paris. After test driving his airline out last week, I had a few questions about the airline and Mr. Moss was kind enough to call me personally. Here’s what he had to say.

Gadling: For the lay person who’s getting into the transatlantic market, what’s the big difference between OpenSkies and a legacy carrier?

Dale Moss: Well, I think there is a whole load of difference. If we got into the market with the same offering as a legacy carrier, it certainly would have not have fulfilled the mission that we were given to by British Airways: to take advantage of new legislation called Open Skies that gives a company like British Airways an opportunity to fly directly, non stop from European cities to New York. So OpenSkies the airline is a manifestation of that mission. And we said to ourselves, “How do we want to be different?”

We want to be predominantly a premium kind of carrier. We’re not going after the masses – we never want to be a large airline with huge airplanes, because that defies what our mission is. Our mission is to go after an intelligently priced product for customers who are discerning.And it is a terrific product. It’s a 757, so it’s not like traveling with 300 of your closest friends; it’s only about eighty people on the airplane when we’re full. And that’s a very different experience. I’ve flown the Concorde maybe two hundred times myself, and I think think that [Open Skies] is one of the most unique travel experiences since Concorde for a transatlantic journey.

When you walk on the airplane you get this great feel, almost like an intimate, corporate jet. And this goes for every cabin – not only for the business seats. It’s all very discreet, a nice way to travel and the service is great.

If there was one word that I would look to that helps us distinguish ourselves, it’s attitude. It’s remembering that we’re starting the airline at a difficult time so we know that we have to better, have to be different and that we just can’t have bad days. Our people are geared for that, we want to be very attentive and take the sensitivity we have for our customers to a new level of anticipation.

We have a different platform – the 757, we’ve got a great suite of products and the prices are absolutely fantastic at every price point through that airplane. We also have the uniqueness of a very nice brand – an up and coming brand that people want to be part of. It’s an exclusive feel without any snobbery. We think that it’s a great way to travel over the Atlantic from Paris to New York and we’re starting to get some great traction with customers.

I noticed on the flight out there that you have the three class configuration. Is that something that you’re going to continue or are you going to expand Biz and Prem +?

We’re going to give it the first six months or so to evaluate what the market is like, what customers are saying, where the returns are and then we’ll perhaps be in the position where we can look at what the product portfolio would be going forward. It’s still in the early days – this past Thursday was our three week anniversary.

With respect to that market that you spoke of — there has been a little bit of volatility in the niche sector recently and obviously you have stronger financial backing than some of those carriers – but is there anything that you plan on doing differently to prevent yourself from going down that same path?

There are some dramatic differences and distinctions between some of the folks that have gone before us. Two of them were using 767’s, and we believe that was just an airplane that is too large for the mission that we could give it. Another was using a 757 with only 48 seats and we thought that that was way too rich a configuration.

There are a number of items that I think are important to note. We have the endorsement of British Airways. We have their support on the sales side. We have a full range of opportunity for people to book with us, whether this is on our website or on BA.com as a BA codeshare. We have the British Airways frequent flyer program.

To have all of those things right out of the box and the special uniqueness of being able to have our own signature we think gives us a tremendous fortification and every chance to be a successful company.

We also take advantage of the British Airways fuel hedge.

There are great synergies that we can use where don’t have to spend a lot. For instance, we have the British Airways lounge facility at JFK and now that we’ve made the acquistion of L’Avion, they have their facility at Newark. We can use the British Airways facility at Newark in the course of time. All of this plays to the economies of scale that we would get because of our relationship with British Airways.

This is to say that the combination of British Airways and OpenSkies gives customers more opportunities and it never pits British Airways against OpenSkies because we’re flying in different markets.

And with your acquisition of L’Avion, are you initially going to use their routes and slots into Orly or are you going to expand their aircraft into the other markets that you’ve been looking at?

It gives us a great footprint into Orly, and that’s the first and most important thing. Now we will have three flights a day, so it really puts Orly on the map for New York. When you have three departures per day you add some girth to your schedule which is something that frequent travelers care about and which will also help us grow.

Beyond that, with regard to how we bring the two companies together, we have some plans — but they need to be tempered with discussion and joint planning. They’re great people. They’re have a great little company and we are very confident that the combination will be infinitely better than the two companies were separately.

Can you tell me what other markets are on your radar?

We hope to make another announcement later this summer. We’re considering four cities: Amsterdam, Brussels, Frankfurt and Milan. We’re on the threshold of making that decision at the end of the month.

We hope to have, by the end of 2009, seven or eight airplanes in the fleet with perhaps five or six destinations.

And will those all be rebadged 757s and L’Avion planes?

Two airplanes will come from the L’Avion fleet while the rest will come from British Airways.

With regard to the mileage program, do you have any plans to perhaps integrate with the Oneworld program?

What we’ve tried to do is keep our company as simple as we can. We’re a point to point premium airline and we’ve tried to keep away from affiliation. Certainly in the beginning we’re going to keep our process very simple, keep our cost structure down and we can make the prices that we offer to customers – even though they’re really premium products – very attractive. That’s our initial strategy.

You’ve got a great airline, thanks for speaking with me.

Thank you.

Talking travel with PBS travel host Rudy Maxa

I’m here with Rudy Maxa, PBS’s “Savvy Traveler” and host of the awards-winning series Rudy Maxa’s World. His sixth season is currently airing, featuring locales such as Estonia, Argentina, and Thailand (he’s already done a whopping 65 episodes).

He began as an investigative journalist at the Washington Post and then became the “Savvy Traveler” 15 years ago for public radio. He’s now a contributing editor at National Geographic Traveler and his work has appeared in GQ, Travel & Leisure, LA Times, and Forbes, among other publications. If you’re interested in more of what he has to say, check out his blog.

How did you make the transition from investigative journalism to travel writing? Did you always have the travel bug?

The switch was gradual and unplanned. While a senior writer at Washingtonian, the monthly DC magazine, I was asked to do political commentary twice a week on a new, national public radio show called “Marketplace.” I didn’t want to do political commentary, but the producer of the show persisted. He asked if I had any hobbies, and I said, ‘Well, I travel all the time, and I’m always surprised at how fellow travelers don’t know how to read an airline ticket. Or don’t know their rights when they arrive at a hotel with a reservation to find the hotel if filled.”

So I suggested a segment on consumer travel issues. I asked my friend Peter Greenberg, then writing a column in the LA Times on travel called “The Savvy Traveler” if I could use that name for radio. He kindly consented. Over a couple of years, my Savvy Traveler segment grew in popularity. I began getting writing assignments on travel subjects for national magazines. Then the every-other-week radio commentary turned into a one-hour, weekend show on public radio, “The Savvy Traveler,” that I hosted for four years. Then came the television series that I own as of this season, “Rudy Maxa’s World.”
And, yes, as an Army brat, I moved around the world every year or two as a kid. I always looked for excuses to travel as a college student and, later, during my 22 years as a journalist at The Washington Post and Washingtonian.

How do you pick what to showcase in each episode of Rudy Maxa’s World? Can you give us a preview this new season?

I consider what shows we’ve done on previous seasons, what cities and regions are capturing travelers’ attention, and, well, where I want to go. The 2008 season features 13, 30-minute shows on the following destinations: St. Petersburg (Russia); Estonia; India (Delhi/Agra and Rajasthan shows); Turkey (Istanbul and The Turquoise Coast); Argentina (Buenos Aires and Mendoza); Japan (Tokyo and Kyoto); Thailand (Bangkok, The Golden Triangle, and The Andaman Coast).

You produced a series of podcasts for NG Traveler about the top walks around the world. What are your favorite three and why?

There are so many great cities for walking. We focused on specific neighborhoods or themes, since no one can walk an entire big city in a day. So National Geographic Traveler chose Tribeca in Manhattan, Miami’s Art Deco district, and so on. My favorites would have to be Paris because every block holds tiny surprises; Tokyo because it is so foreign to most Americans; and-this might be surprising-Minneapolis.

In Minneapolis, I walk a very small area, the city’s old mill district, which in the early 1800s provided the bulk of the country’s flour. I didn’t know what a dangerous business turning wheat into flour could be-to this day, the Twin Cities has a large industry in artificial limbs, born from tragic accidents nearly 200 years ago. Many of the mills are still standing, though today they’re luxury condos. I love places with compelling stories, and to my surprise, the mill district of Minneapolis qualified.

What do you do as a NG Traveler contributing editor?

I write articles. I help out on ancillary projects such as the walking tours and a couple of other projects that are in the works. I’ll be a guide on an ’09 around-the-world trip that the Society offers each year.

What are your all-time favorite cities and countries?

Here’s my theory: It’s a place you discover later in life that impresses you the most. My father, an Army colonel, was stationed twice in my life in Germany, and we toured Europe widely. I visited often in college and as a young man. I love Europe, but I didn’t get to Asia until I was 34. And that first night in Hong Kong, I was alone on the Star Ferry looking at a full moon over Victoria Peak on crystal clear night, and I was transfixed. Ever since then, I’ve tried not to miss an opportunity to travel in Asia.

If you really press me, I’d have to choose Thailand as my favorite country, maybe Paris or London or Bangkok as my favorite city. But, then again, there’s Barcelona and Madrid. And Istanbul and Delhi . . .

Come back tomorrow for part 2.

Talking travel with frequent mileage expert John Lopinto

John Lopinto is one of those savvy frequent fliers who always manages to yoink that last upgrade from you (he racks over 100,000+ miles each year). But he also happens to be a top flier guru who helps travelers make the airlines work for them through his award-winning site, ExpertFlyer.com, the #1 destination for frequent fliers. He’s here to give some exclusive tips and insider info on getting the best deals on your next flight.

What Are the Most Effective Ways to Work the Upgrades Game?

The Holy Grail of air travel is flying in business or first class for the price of a cheap coach ticket. Short of “squatting” in a first class seat and hoping you won’t get caught (you will, so don’t try it), there are ways to use your frequent flier miles to score that seat in the front. If you are an “elite” status member in your favorite frequent flier program, you have a better chance than the average member, but if you are at the program’s very highest elite level, you have more options and better odds at getting that upgrade that sometimes can be free.

For the rest of us, however, using miles to upgrade is usually the easiest and can be booked at the time of ticket purchase. They also offer a better value for the miles used compared to using miles to “purchase” a coach award ticket. But upgrade inventory is always limited so it is best to book as far in advance as possible and for mid-week travel if possible. But if you can’t upgrade when purchasing your ticket, go on the wait-list. Most upgrades don’t clear until days or hours before departure.

What are Fare Buckets and How Can Flyers Take Advantage of them to Save Money?

Airlines don’t sell all their seats at the same price. In fact, on some flights there may be over a dozen different fares just for coach. In general, the further in advance you buy a ticket the more fare options there are. These are called fare buckets and the cheaper the fare the more restrictions and conditions there are attached to that bucket. If you are willing to agree to them the airline is willing to sell you a cheaper ticket. But there are only so many tickets in a given bucket that the airline is willing to sell at that price for a particular flight. That’s why just changing the time of departure, say from 7:00 am to 9:00am may find that a lower cost bucket still has seats for sale than the earlier flight. Sometimes just leaving a day earlier or later will help you find a cheaper fare bucket with seats.

What’s Your Stance on Fast-Track Security Programs Like Clear?

If you have elite frequent flyer status with the airline you are flying on, or traveling in business or first class, almost all airports have a special security line that has almost no wait to get to the TSA screening point. If this is the case for you, then programs such as Clear offer little or no advantage. However, if this is not the case and you are typically one who shows up at the airport at the last minute or have repeated security issues, then this may offer some value for you.

How Do You Find the Cheapest Flights

I actually use the airlines’ own website. I find their fares to be the lowest available and they may show many fare options, not just the lowest. Airline-independent sites like Kayak, Orbitz and others are good for surveying all the airline offerings at once, but one of the advantages of booking directly on the airlines’ site is that you have established the sale directly with the airline.

Although the fare may be the same, when flights are canceled or you need to be re-routed at the last minute it will be easier to negotiate an alternative with the airline agent if you had purchased your ticket directly with them. Also, some airlines now charge a fee if you want to simply change your seat assignment and didn’t purchase your ticket directly from the airline. You may also want to use an airline-independent web site that does not sell tickets that just lists all the fares and rules for all flights such as ExpertFlyer.com.

Is It Ever a Good Idea to Use a Travel Agent To Book Flights?

Yes, of course. Travel agents are professionals who have experience with the nuances of air travel. Unfortunately, today their commissions from the airlines are either very small or non-existent. So, they must extract a fee over and above the airline ticket price from the passenger in many cases. But if the itinerary is complex, especially for foreign travel, then a good travel agent may well be worth it. Also, they sometimes have access to special consolidator fares that are not offered directly by the airlines.

What About Consolidators?

First, make sure you book them through a reputable agent who normally deals in consolidator fares. Next, make sure you know all the conditions and restrictions associated with the ticket. What happens if you need to change the date of the flight? What are the cancellation penalties? What airline is being used? Is the fare eligible for frequent flyer miles or can it be upgraded? In short, they can offer a good value, but buyer beware.

Are There Any Secrets for Getting First or Business Class Tickets for Cheap?

If you fly Business class to Asia look into the CX Leverage program at cxleverage.com. This program offers up to a 20% discount on full-fare unrestricted business class tickets, and 5% off first class, between the US and Asia on Cathay Pacific, arguably one of the better airlines in the world. You only have to be a small business in the US and register your business on their site.

The airlines also offer discounted first and business class tickets with limited inventory on certain routes. The so-called I-fares are restricted business class tickets on certain routes that offer excellent value on some competitive routes. There are also consolidators that specialize in discounted business class fares. Also, consider using your miles to upgrade from a less expensive coach fare into business or first class.

Is There a Free Resource to Find the Perfect Seat on Any Plane?

There are two web sites to visit: seatguru.com and seatexpert.com. Both offer seat maps of most airlines and their individual aircrafts showing graphical layouts of the cabins and pros and cons for various seats on the plane as reported by passengers. For seat maps on specific flights that show which seats are occupied or not, try ExpertFlyer.com.

Talking travel with the most traveled man in the world

I’m here with Charles Veley, who’s considered the person who has been to the most countries, territories, islands, protectorates (you get the picture) in the world. By one popular list, which is used by his global club for country collectors, he’s been to 630 distinct places. Check out his travel history here for easy stalking. His blog can be found here.

I’ve read your dispatch for International Herald Tribune from Bouvet Island. Was that the most difficult place to get to?

Bouvet is definitely one of the most difficult places. Of course, the MOST difficult places should be by definition the ones I haven’t been able to do yet. Most frustrating of this group include Paracel Islands and Nicobar Islands.

Any new territories / speck of land you’ve traveled to this year?

I was home for the first 5 months of the year, due to the arrival of our 3rd child under age 5 (Caroline Vanessa Veley), but did manage to land on Rockall in May. A short writeup of that trip is here. For the past couple of years, I’ve kept a very brief, high-level blog.
Do you ever take “normal” vacations? If so, do you have any favorite destinations?

My wife and I have settled on 2 favorite summer vacation spots for the family. The first is Hanalei, Kauai (where we are now for 3 weeks). The second is Tofino, Vancouver Island, BC, Canada (where we go at the end of the summer). We have also been to Disneyland and Disney World in the last 2 years.

How’d you manage to squeeze a million miles of travel into 3 years? You must be constantly on Orbitz booking flights?

That information is not accurate. The fastest million miles of travel I’ve ever covered is in 5-6 years. But yes, there were a couple of years when I spent 2-3 hours a day doing travel planning, and was continuously planning approximately 3 months out. This was before we had any children, and before I founded Most Traveled People, so I was traveling full-time. Now, planning is on more of a “regular” trip-by-trip basis.

Are you a walking geography book by now? Do you just have an enormous amount of useless trivia in your head? Or at least the capitals of every country in the world?

I’ve always had an enormous amount of trivia in my head (useless or otherwise). And I’ve always been interested in geography. Certainly, my geographic knowledge has been intensely strengthened in the last 10 years. I think I had memorized the capitals of the world from a young age, but certainly that knowledge is stronger from having visited them all.

How many languages do you know? When you’ve visiting these off-the-map places, how do you communicate with the locals?

I speak 5 languages (English, French, Spanish, Italian, German), although my Italian and German are out of practice. I would gladly trade Italian and German for Russian and Arabic, because Russian and Arabic can get you out of trouble. Italian and German are not as necessary in those countries, and not as widespread globally. If I had unlimited time to learn new languages, I would prioritize them as follows: Russian, Arabic, Mandarin, Portugese. I had Rosetta Stone Russian all set up on our 3-week drive across Russia last year, but the roads were too bumpy, and the laptop wouldn’t operate, so I learned at a slower rate without the software. I can greet people, order beer, etc. in many other languages.

How’d you navigate all the red-tape. Isn’t it next to impossible to get visas for Libya or Iraq or Afghanistan?

This is a matter of organization, focus, creativity, and persistence. If it were easy, more people would have done it. Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan are not particularly difficult (although Libya used to be), but Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Angola are generally difficult for tourist visas. I’ve developed a lot of patience for third world bureaucracies.

So it seems unfair to ask you what your favorite country is. So what about least favorite?

Guinea Bissau doesn’t have all that much going for it.

How’d you get into Guantanamo Bay? What are some places that are basically impossible to ever see?

I have never been to Guantanamo Bay, although for a while, I did have a person there willing to sponsor me. I suspect that if I pursued it again, I would find someone stationed there who would be interested in sponsoring me for a visit. But Guantanamo Bay hasn’t been a recent priority. The best would be to try to enter it from the Cuban gate along with the workers, while holding a valid sponsorship!

What’s your next trip?

Tomorrow, from Kauai, we return to San Francisco. Sunday, I fly to East Central Africa for 3 weeks, with a 2-day transit in France for Bastille Day and some Belgian beer tasting. From Africa, I transit to Apia, Samoa, for a 3 week dive expedition to some of the most remote Central Pacific Islands (including Howland, where Amelia Earhart was last scheduled to land).

Talking travel with Sacred Places of Goddess author Karen Tate

When I headed to the West Hollywood Book Fair last September, I didn’t know which writers I would meet or what to expect. The scope of offerings was impressive, and one book in particular caught my eye. Sacred Places of the Goddesses: 101 Destinations pulled me in for a chat with the author, Karen Tate.

Tate, who lives with her husband, Roy in one of my most favorite towns, Venice, California, is a world traveler, tour guide and an expert on goddesses. She knows exactly where to see their traces and influences.

Her book–part travel guide, part spiritual guide and part chronicle of history, includes each section of the world. [See earlier post review.]

Since we chatted in the shade of her display booth, Tate has been busy launching her weekly Internet radio show “Voices of the Sacred Feminine” and promoting her new book, Walking an Ancient Path.

We talked on the phone last fall, and I’ve kept up with her various activities ever since. As a person with a lens focused on travel and spirituality, Tate offers a unique perspective about how one can experience the world.

You started out on your travels searching out places of the divine feminine after age 30. How do you think this may have influenced your traveling experiences?

It totally influenced my travel 120%. I began to have a very focused and single minded passion and ambition to visit the sacred sites of Goddess around the world, including the museums that house all her artifacts. . .The prominent place Goddess once held in the world cannot be denied when one sees her presence throughout history through the lens of sacred travel and the museums.

When visiting a site considered sacred, how can people enhance their own understanding of its significance and ability to feel its power? Are there techniques you use?

This is very subjective as we all “receive” awareness, guidance and understanding differently. Some people are visual, others are kinesthetic or auditory.

I encourage people to use what has worked for them. However, I think it is important to know a bit about the site and the deity that draws you to the site so there is some foundation – but it’s very important to give equal attention to the left (academic) and right (intuitive) brain.

After you are armed with some knowledge, then you have to open your senses and try to feel, hear, sense what comes to you. It’s important to sink in to the space and be present and there, a part of the site as much as possible.

Quiet contemplation works for some. Walking meditation for others. Sometimes I recommend to travelers if they’re about to visit a special site the next day, take a ritual bath the night before, eat light, don’t let yourself be distracted and above all, ask the Divine Source, by whatever name you identify that essence, what it is you should learn from the site. Then listen and don’t judge the reply.

Finally, if you receive nothing profound. Don’t put pressure on yourself. Sometimes your epiphany might arrive in a dream or days or weeks afterward the journey.

Of all the places you’ve traveled which gave you the “Wow!” feeling the most? The kind of feeling that makes your heart beat faster-or where you want to sit down to soak in the aura.

I was very moved by Ireland and Turkey – which was a surprise because I’ve always had an affinity for Isis and Egypt. Being in the countryside of Ireland, among the green meadows and standing stones, I felt as if I were one with Nature and totally inspired to revel in her majesty, dance among the stones, and feel the magic of the land.

In Turkey, particularly in Aphrodiasias, sacred to the Goddess Aphrodite, I was in awe as I stood in the valley, her temple before me, the snow-capped mountains on either side of me, and I truly felt embraced in the loving arms of the Mother.

I still get the feeling of hair standing on end on my arms and neck thinking about that awareness of her essence that I sense when I was there. It was truly remarkable and it’s these glimpses that we get that make the travel worthwhile and can be catalysts for transformation in our lives.

When you travel, what techniques do you use or questions do you ask in order to better understand how people see the world and their sense of themselves? Is there a commonality that strikes you?

I definitely have an open mind when I travel. And I encourage Americans to do the same. We can go to other countries and realize that these people are part of our human family. They may look different, sound different, do things differently but they are all a microcosm of the macrocosm.

We all are. We begin to see them as people – instead of being “other”. We see their value and what diversity they add to the world. I think it appropriately mellows out American hubris. And I always encourage those I take along on my travels to consider themselves Ambassadors of their country, spirituality, or gender. And smile and laugh a lot. Those are always great ice breakers.

Ever since you’ve started your travels, talking, and writing about the divine, how has people’s interest in the subject changed and why do you think this is?

I think there is a resurgent interest in the Divine Feminine, Sacred Feminine, Feminine Consciousness, Goddess — by whatever name you want to call her or her essence and ideals. Books and films such as The DaVinci Code sparked dialog helping people realize there is more to history than they originally believed.

If someone is going to a country such as India that is filled with so many sites considered divine, how would you suggest choosing between them? What criterion do you use?

I always tell people to look inside and see what they hope to achieve from the journey. You have to take the time to research destinations ahead of time so that you know what will fit into your itinerary and so that you’ll you see the places that will be most meaningful to you. I’d research itineraries for six months or more. Don’t leave the planning until when you get there.

Make sure the museums are open on the day you’re there. Leave yourself time to be at the sites you feel most called to visit. Spend as much quiet time in these locales as you can.

Is there a particular treasure you’ve picked up along your travels that has particular meaning for you? What is it, and how did you come to get it?

I’m a collector of Goddess imagery and my most significant and precious statue is that of Aphrodite from Aphrodiasias in Turkey. Her image is not the typical image we see of Aphrodite that reflects the work of the artist Botticelli, naked and emerging from a shell.

Instead we see a more authentic image of Aphrodite, with Anatolian flavor, where she’s wearing a crown that reflects the walls of the city as a symbol of her being protector of the people.

Her torso is filled with images of animals, symbolic of her being Mistress of the Animals. This image shows the full power and majesty of Aphrodite, rather than her much more shallow personae as just a goddess of love and beauty. [the photo is an example, not Tate’s.]

Since spirituality is one of the themes of your life, how do you stay focused and grounded when you travel?

You have to strike a balance between taking care of the mundane and linear issues, like getting from points A to B, and then be able to shift gears and put on your receptive and intuitive hat when you arrive at a sacred place.

I guess it’s not unlike how we have to live our lives – always trying to avoid chaos by balancing the left and right brain, the masculine and feminine aspect of ourselves, embracing the ideals of Goddess and God.

If someone could only go to three sites of the Divine Feminine, which three sites would you recommend?

This is very personal depending on ones ancestry, their spiritual calling and their personal interests.

If I could rephrase the sentence and say of all the places I’ve been, which three were the most important or potent for me, I’d say feeling the living essence of Goddess in the countryside of Ireland, in Aphrodiasias, Turkey, and in the Sekhmet Temple of Karnak in Egypt.

However, that being said, you would then miss all the wonderful sites such as Knossos on Crete, the temples on the island of Delos in the Mediterranean, the Isis Temple in Philae, Egypt, the sacred Bath of Sulis Minerva in England, the wonders of India, the temples in Japan.

I think you get my point. There are so many sacred places of Goddess that span so many cultures and continents. I think a very important point that this raises is the diversity of Goddess worship that stands as a testament to Her nature of diversity and inclusiveness – two qualities many of us could certain stand to embrace, which might enhance life on our planet.

**To see Karen Tate or take part in one of the events she organizes, here is the list of upcoming dates. There are several. In October, Karen is leading at Sacred Sites trip to Turkey.