Plane Answers: Seatbelt sign compliance and a question about packing for long trips

Welcome to Gadling’s feature, Plane Answers, where our resident airline pilot, Kent Wien, answers your questions about everything from takeoff to touchdown and beyond. Have a question of your own? Ask away!

Shane asks:

What are the official FAA regulations regarding passengers being up with the seatbelt sign on? On every flight, prior to the sign being turned off, passengers get up to use the washroom and rarely to do the flight attendants ask them to return to their seats. Is there discretion allowed here? Thanks so much for the knowledge and please keep it coming.

Hi Shane,

I answer a lot of these questions while on my crew rest break in the back of the airplane since it’s impossible to sleep on the first break during the meal service.

I mention this because both times I read through your question the flight attendant came on with a reminder over the PA that the seatbelt sign was on and that she would appreciate it if the passengers who were up and about could please return to their seats. The irony gave me a chuckle.

She handled this in the way the FAA requires. If people are up with the sign on, flight attendants are required to make the passenger aware that the sign is on and that they should be seated with their seatbelts fastened.

But if you’ve really got to go, it may be necessary to ignore the sign. I didn’t give you permission, and neither did she, but if you have to go, you have to go. Smile and say “I’ll be careful. It’s an emergency.”

She’s not required to force you into your seat, but she may continue to warn you of the sign. Just don’t let it get to a point where you’re ignoring a direct request from a flight attendant. There are specific rules against that.
Johannes asks:

Hey Kent,

I love reading your blog, it gave the final push for me to write an application to the German airline Lufthansa to study to become a pilot. It’s been my dream for my whole life through – I even tried to get my PPL-C, but had to quit, since it took so much time that I couldn’t afford it (I have to work on weekends, and the training is only on weekends).

I think Germany is the only country in the world where the airlines pay the whole education (you only have to pay 60k€ back after finishing the training and only when Lufthansa offers you a job within 5 years after finishing the whole license.)

So my question:

I’ve been wondering how much clothing you have to carry around with you. And who does the laundry during long trips?

You’ve written about a 14-day tour with only one day off in Paris. When I do the laundry, washing, drying and iron my clothes takes about 4 hours. I can’t imagine that you carry enough clothing for 14 days with you, but the fact that you have written about breaks and layovers shows me, that there is not much time to wash your stuff.

So, how do you manage that ?

Hi Johannes,

I hope I didn’t leave you with the impression that we’re on the road for the entire 14 days. In my case last year, those Paris trips were made up of three-day back-to-back trips. So I’d fly to Paris one day, layover for 24 hours there and then fly home on the third day.

Once at home, I’d have another 24 hours until heading back to the airport again to do it all over. So there’s plenty of time for laundry and a little time left over to see the family.

That 14-days of flying was very unusual though. We had a mechanical problem that caused our three-day trip to turn into a 5-day trip, which did present a slight laundry problem. I usually pack a few spares of everything on my trip.

I understand there are some airlines, such as FedEx and other international carriers that do fly some pretty long trips. I suspect Lufthansa has a number of three-day trips though.

Good luck with the application process at Lufthansa. I know it’s extremely competitive but it’s a great deal if you can get it.

Do you have a question about something related to the pointy end of an airplane? Ask Kent and maybe he’ll use it for the next Plane Answers. Check out his other blog, Cockpit Chronicles and travel along with him at work.

Plane Answers: A pilot’s seatbelt sign philosophy and aircraft accident odds

Welcome to Gadling’s feature, Plane Answers, where our resident airline pilot, Kent Wien, answers your questions about everything from takeoff to touchdown and beyond. Have a question of your own? Ask away!

Caroline asks:

Can someone tell me why the pilot sometimes turns on the seatbelt sign but it’s seemingly for no reason? I recently flew Dubai to London and he (or she) kept putting it on however nothing happened. Especially annoying as I needed the bathroom at the time?

Hi Caroline,

There are a couple of possible explanations for a seatbelt sign that turns on and off frequently.

Occasionally we’ll get reports from airplanes in front of us warning of turbulence ahead. It’s best to get the seatbelt sign on if we get a report like this to prevent any injuries to passengers standing in the aisle.

Deciding when to turn the sign on after experiencing some un-forecasted and unreported bumps can be a challenge. Some pilots don’t mind turning the sign on and off as the conditions permit and some will turn it on, only to forget about the sign when the ride improves, thus making every passenger feel like a criminal for using the lavatory for the rest of the trip.

There are some pilots who are concerned enough about the liability involved when turning the sign off that they’ll insist on keeping it lit for the duration of the flight. This actually creates a riskier situation since passengers will disregard the sign, even during periods of turbulence, completely eliminating the point in having a sign in the first place.

There’s another explanation that might surprise you. Pilots have been known to get calls from flight attendants asking for the sign to be turned on so they don’t have to deal with people becoming stuck in an aisle between their carts or otherwise getting in the way of the service.

And occasionally there can be a rather large group of people congregating around the galleys chatting it up. One of the ways to disperse this crowd had been to use the seatbelt sign. This isn’t exactly what the sign was intended for, of course.

Jen asks:

Hi Kent,

In light of the Air France crash, I am curious to know if it is indeed true that passengers pass out first, due to loss of cabin pressure, even before a plane hits the water (assuming it didn’t explode in the air)?

What are the odds of this happening to me? Are the odds of this happening greater or less than winning the lottery?

P.S. This is my take: when I get on the plane, my odds are 50 / 50 : 50% chance that I live and 50% chance I don’t. (haha, ok, joking…)

Hi Jen,

If the flight were to depressurize, and assuming the passengers couldn’t get to their oxygen masks during the descent, then there is a limited amount of time until they will pass out. This time of useful consciousness varies depending on the altitude.

At FL350 (35,000 feet) that time is only 30 to 60 seconds. However if the airplane is descending rapidly, the lower altitude will likely wake people up.

It’s a morbid thought, for sure, but since you brought up statistics, let’s look at the odds of dying in an airline accident a moment.

According to the Insurance Information Institute, the odds of losing your life in any given year is 1 in 502,544 and over an entire lifetime, it drops down to 1 in 6,460.

That’s much better than the 1 in 84 odds over a lifetime that a person could be killed in an automobile accident. It seems to me the most effective way to save lives on a large scale would be to improve auto safety.

The odds of winning the lottery are reported at between 1 in 18 million for a state lottery to as low as 1 in 120 million in a multi-state contest. So, in fact the odds of an airplane accident are greater than the average person’s odds of winning the lottery.

But the automobile odds show that driving is really the risky activity – 77 times riskier than flying, yet it’s unusual to hear of anyone afraid of driving.

Do you have a question about something related to the pointy end of an airplane? Ask Kent and maybe he’ll use it for the next Plane Answers. Check out his other blog, Cockpit Chronicles to travel along with him at work.

Plane Answers: Turbulence causing aircraft to break apart and London holding patterns.

Welcome to Gadling’s feature, Plane Answers, where our resident airline pilot, Kent Wien, answers your questions about everything from takeoff to touchdown and beyond. Have a question of your own? Ask away!

Tai asks:

Hi Kent,

I’m an avid reader of both your blog and Plane Answers and plan to pursue a career in aviation.

I generally keep an eye out in my news feeds for airline/aircraft related stories and came across a CNN article about an Air France A330 which was lost over the Atlantic. Officials are saying that the crash could have occurred as the plane encountered extremely heavy turbulence.

Is it possible for turbulence to be severe enough to actually cause a plane to come down, or would there likely be other factors or problems with the aircraft? Also, if there is turbulence that strong, wouldn’t the captain reroute the flight around it?

I’m often questioned about the dangers posed by turbulence and I’ve explained in the past that modern airliners are engineered to handle the worst case scenarios. But there are absolutely situations, such as extremely large thunderstorms that could cause structural damage to an aircraft.

It’s a big part of why airlines, and pilots specifically, are so concerned about accurate weather reports, good radar technology, flight planning and operating procedures that keep us away from thunderstorms.

Our manual even specifies a 20 nautical mile distance to be flown around thunderstorms. But don’t confuse every cumulous cloud as having the potential of a thunderstorm.

One of the few examples of an airliner being brought down due to turbulence that I’m aware of hits rather close to home for me. In the late 1960s the airline my grandpa had started 40 years earlier purchased a competing airline.

Just weeks after that purchase, one of the recently acquired airplanes, a Fokker F-27s broke up in-flight near Illiamna mountain after an encounter with severe-to-extreme turbulence.

It was the worst accident by far over the 60-year run of the company. So while I’d love to say turbulence could never cause an accident in a modern airliner, I wouldn’t rule it out as a possibility today.

But I’m not so sure that’s what happened to Air France 447. In fact, by definition aircraft accidents are usually the result of something rather unanticipated. So I don’t buy any speculation by the analysts at this point, even with the small clues the ACARS maintenance status messages give us. This is the stage of an investigation where nothing is ruled out.


Jackie asks:

Hi Kent!

What a great service you do here. I have read through numerous posts and it has surely helped calm some of my fears of flying.

A few months ago, I was on a BA flight from PRG to LHR and about 30 minutes outside of London, the captain came on to tell us that due to heavy traffic volume, we were to be placed in a racetrack holding pattern. This holding pattern lasted about half an hour before we began our final descent to LHR. As someone who is a very nervous flyer, anything out of the ordinary makes me very on edge. I’ve flown a great deal, but this was my first experience with a holding pattern. I guess I have been fortunate!

My question is: Just how common are racetrack holding patterns? Are some airports (such as LHR) more notorious for holding planes in that way? Also, I was curious as to whether there is any type of “hierarchy” for exiting the holding pattern? I mean, is it truly first-in, first out? Or since we were in a smaller plane (737 or A320) for the short hop from Prague, would preference be given to the heavies coming from the USA and such?

One final question, when we were in the holding pattern, and in the midst of a turn, the plane quickly jolted/banked to the side in which we were turning and then quickly jolted to the extreme other side as if the pilot quickly corrected this. He then came over the speaker to say that we had hit an air pocket. Does that sound right? Is there any danger in “hitting air pockets” while in a holding pattern turn? I do remember we were pulled out of the pattern to land soon after that experience.

Hi Jackie,

Holding while on the arrival portion of a flight is probably more common in London than any other place I’ve flown. I’d estimate that half the time I have flown into London involved a hold, usually for only one to three turns.

The priority is based on first in, first out. So you may start holding at 16,000 feet and be given lower as the airplanes below you clear out. Finally, at perhaps 11,000 feet, you’d be the next one in line and could then start the rest of the approach.

You almost certainly came across another airplane’s wake. You can think of these currents that are generated by aircraft much in the same way a boat creates a wake as it plows through the water.

In your case, there was probably an airplane holding at the same altitude that had been cleared lower and your flight began holding at that level as well. The wakes usually descend as time goes on, which can be an issue when holding below another aircraft.

Since the holding patterns drawn and flown by the airplane’s computer known as an FMS (flight management system) is so precise when coupled to GPS technology, it’s no surprise that you happened to come along another airplane’s wake.

Generally, they’re startling, but they don’t threaten the safety of airliners.

Coincidently I have a video that shows a flight we did last year as we were about to enter the London holding pattern over “OCK” or the Ockham VOR which is a specific point we navigate to near the town of Guildford. Notice the holding pattern drawn by our computers for our airplane to follow.

In the third to last scene, you can see the airplanes on the screen that we can view in the cockpit. And the final scene shows us selecting a lower altitude before I put the camera away.

Thanks for the great question.

Do you have a question about something related to the pointy end of an airplane? Ask Kent and maybe he’ll use it for nex
t Monday’s
Plane Answers. Check out his other blog, Cockpit Chronicles and travel along with him at work.

Plane Answers: Whistling airplanes and heavy passengers that cost airlines more in fuel?

Welcome to Gadling’s feature, Plane Answers, where our resident airline pilot, Kent Wien, answers your questions about everything from takeoff to touchdown and beyond. Have a question of your own? Ask away!

Julie asks:

Hi Kent!

Last week on a flight out of ATL on a CRJ during takeoff there was a high pitched sound that got higher and higher until it eventually stopped as we climbed up near the clouds. There was a thunderstorm passing through Atlanta so the plane was wet, I was wondering if the noise had to do with the moisture on the outside of the plane? It was noticeable enough to make me look up for a second, but it disappeared pretty quickly.

Do you know what it could have been? I think every time I fly (although not that often) I come up with a new question for you! I love reading this feature every week, thanks!

Thanks Julie,

I’m pretty sure what you were hearing was a door seal that had just enough of an air leak to cause it to whistle. As you climbed the cabin fully pressurized, which must have stopped the noise.

We occasionally see this in the cockpit around the windows. If it’s too annoying, maintenance will pressurize the aircraft on the ground to find the source of the leak. This leak isn’t really a safety issue, but if it’s annoying enough to the passengers or crew, then it really needs to be fixed.
Diana asks:

Hi Kent,

My question has probably been asked a thousand times but I’ve only had to ask this of myself recently because of an argumentative essay I’m writing on overweight people being charged extra for airfares.

I saw your comments on a plane’s fuel plan which talked about the factors needing to be considered when designing the fuel plan. These included the forecasted winds of an aircraft’s journey, the altitude the aircraft will be flying at and the weight of the aircraft.

Do you think that it would be correct to assume that the heavier the plane is, the more fuel the plane will need to be operational?

Also, if the weight of the plane was too heavy, could that cause a safety risk? Yes it may sound ‘obvious’ to some (if in fact the answer is ‘yes’) but I just thought I’d ask for confirmation.

Thanks a lot.

The answer is a definite yes.

Let me give you an example:

We’re encouraged to NOT take unnecessary amounts of extra fuel. We’re told that it takes an extra 10% of the weight of the added fuel just to carry it along on average.

So our airline has also reduced the amount of water carried on board for the lav sinks to the bare minimum. That has saved about 40 gallons of water on the 757, or 240 pounds per flight.

As for safety, that’d be a hard one to argue. The FAA doesn’t require airlines to weigh each passenger, but uses a system of average weights for each passenger of 190 pounds in the summer and 195 in the winter.

Thanks for the great question, Diana.

Do you have a question about something related to the pointy end of an airplane? Ask Kent and he’ll try to use it for next Monday’s Plane Answers. Check out his other blog, Cockpit Chronicles and travel along with him at work.

Plane Answers: “Chit-chat” did NOT doom Colgan flight 3407

Welcome to Gadling’s feature, Plane Answers, where our resident airline pilot, Kent Wien, answers your questions about everything from takeoff to touchdown and beyond. Have a question of your own? Ask away!

Allow me to invoke some commentary in lieu of today’s usual Plane Answers post.

So much has been written about the Colgan Dash 8 accident in Buffalo, NY. As I’ve written before in a “Pilots are either Heroes or Villains” post, I am a reluctant commenter during accident investigations. But the NTSB has released a tremendous amount of information already and I feel the need to shed some light on what the Colgan pilots may have been dealing with before the tragic accident.

We’ve heard that the captain reacted incorrectly by pulling up instead of pushing forward, that he didn’t have much experience in the Dash 8 Q400, that he and the first officer were discussing non-essential topics during the sterile period and that the captain had flunked a number of checkrides while learning to fly. We also heard about their long commute before work and the lack of sleep each pilot had before the trip.

But how much did these facts play a part in the accident? We’ll never know exactly what each pilot was thinking, but when you combine the transcripts with the NTSB recreation, a picture emerges that’s a little more complicated than what’s being reported.

According to the transcripts, the flight from Newark was completely normal until the start of the approach. Checklists were accomplished, altimeters were set, approach briefings were done. There was a fair amount of conversation, but this was mainly while above 10,000 feet. There may have been discussions with their company about where the aircraft would park after landing, but it’s hard for me to determine if this was before or after they flew below 10,000 feet.

The press latched on to the ‘chit-chat’ these pilots were having before the accident. The cockpit voice recorder was installed years ago as a safety device, but it’s sadly being used to satisfy the morbid curiosity of the public. Do we really need to hear the conversations that took place on the ground in Newark before this flight?

Much of that talking while approaching Buffalo revolved around icing and their prior experience in ice. In the last four minutes before the captain asked for the gear to be put down, there was only a single, three-sentence statement made by the captain in response to the co-pilot’s concern with her lack of icing experience.

The Approach

After that, nothing was said for the next two minutes, until the chain of events that would cause this accident would begin.
“Gear down.” The captain called.

The co-pilot responded by lowering the gear and pushing two knobs called condition levers forward. Just two seconds later, the approach controller told her to contact the tower. The co-pilot immediately looked down to change to the tower frequency, while acknowledging the controller. After she had spun some dials to enter the tower frequency in the VHF control panel, she looked at the gear handle to call out that it had extended completely-that it was now down and locked.

Two seconds later, the captain called for the flaps to be lowered to 15 degrees. Before even having a chance to look up and check on the flight’s progress she needed to move the flap handle from 5 to 15 degrees.

In the 22 seconds that it took for the co-pilot to put the gear down, push the condition levers forward, change the frequency, verify the landing gear position and select flaps 15, the airplane had slowed from 180 knots to 133 knots and the stall warning system activated.

She was relying on the captain to fly the airplane or, in this case, monitor the autopilot, while she performed her non-flying pilot duties. Every pilot has been in this situation before, where rapid-fire actions can take the non-flying pilot’s attention away. But usually being out of the loop for twenty seconds isn’t enough to cause a problem. Up to this point, she had done everything right.

Now let’s think about what the captain may have been dealing with:

He was in level flight at 2,300 feet with the flaps set to five degrees. He may have been tired, and so he likely felt like letting the autopilot take care of intercepting the final approach course. The autopilot was holding the altitude and heading and since the Dash 8 Q400 doesn’t have any autothrottles, he was manually setting the power to the proper setting to maintain a speed of about 180 knots.

At one point, the speed picked up to 186 knots. He pulled the power back slightly to let it settle at 180 knots which took about 6 seconds.

A few seconds later he called for the gear to come down. The co-pilot brought the gear down and pushed the condition levers forward. The condition levers essentially control the pitch of the propellors. Pushing them forward drives the prop blades to a finer pitch, resulting in a higher prop RPM, but also more drag. These levers are procedurally moved forward so maximum thrust is available in the case of a missed approach. So putting the gear down and the condition levers are two actions that will result in a significant amount of drag.

But somehow, the captain was distracted. He had just pulled the power back prior to calling for the gear to come down. He didn’t touch the throttles for the next 27 seconds, which means there was no way he had glanced at his airspeed for that half-minute. He could have been checking to see if there was any more ice accumulating or glancing at his approach plate.

The point is, he had become distracted and the co-pilot was out of the loop while she accomplished her required duties. The motion of the gear coming down and the condition levers coming forward meant that there was little time to react with the throttles.

This wasn’t the first time a pilot failed to notice a loss of airspeed while on approach. In fact, less than two weeks later another accident occurred while flying an approach on autopilot. Turkish flight 1951 which crashed short of the runway in Amsterdam was equipped with an autothrottle system, but it had failed at 1950 feet, when it reduced the power to idle slowly without the crew noticing.

In an age when the flying public seeks comfort by thinking airplanes just land themselves, it appears that a reliance on automation may have led to two separate accidents in the month of February alone. Autopilot use is generally encouraged by many airlines as a way to reduce a pilot’s workload.

But I’m certain that if the autopilot had been off in either accident, the pilots would have found it difficult to maintain altitude as the airplane slowed, which would have made it immediately obvious that more power was needed.

In both of these cases the autopilot masked this, making it easier to become distracted.

The Stall

When the stick shaker activated on Colgan flight 3407, the autopilot turned off automatically. Somehow the captain let the nose of the airplane reach nearly 30 degrees, and even though he correctly responded with full power, it wasn’t going to prevent the continued loss of airspeed as long as he had the nose pointed up between 20 and 30 degrees.

The co-pilot had been thinking about ice for the last half of the trip because of the build-up she had seen earlier, and this might have been going through her mind as she heard the stick shaker activate at the exact moment she was moving the flap handle from 5 degrees to 15. She very well may have associated her flap selection with the stick shaker, and if a movement in the flight controls results in something going wrong, I could see most pilots tempted to move the flap handle back where it was before the problem began (in this case, back up).

This is exactly what she did, which made the recovery much more difficult for the captain, since an extra 20 or 25 knots would be needed to fly at the reduced flap settings. Bringing the flaps up is also a recovery technique in high-wing turboprops that encounter enough ice to stall the tail. So this may be further proof that she was convinced tail-icing was their problem.

The captain may have also thought tail icing was his problem and the reason the nose wanted to drop, completely misreading what the ‘stick pusher’ was trying to tell him. Reports have indicated that the captain had watched the NASA video on tailplane icing recoveries during training just a few months earlier. This is a video which will definitely leave a lasting impression on any pilot.

Considering the lack of sleep both pilots had, it’s easy to come up with a scenario where a misdiagnosis of the problem–deciding between a tailplane stall or traditional stall–led to the accident.

The Aftermath

Non-essential chatter wasn’t a factor in this accident since the pilots had been quiet for more than two minutes prior to the airplane slowing. The NTSB will likely look at the training these pilots had received and how fatigue may have played a role in the accident.

It’s been verified that a lack of sleep can be equivalent to drinking while on the job, so the NTSB will likely factor this into their final report. And perhaps some attention will be given to the audible alerts pilots receive with specific attention given to how accurately they’re interpreted and how long the reaction time is with various warnings.

The airplane manufacturers may determine that a warning prior to the stick shaker is warranted. A “caution, too slow!” warning may be all that’s needed.

But first, training and procedures need to be considered to avoid this scenario. A great deal of time is spent during recurrent training on FAA mandated scenarios and emergencies that become repetitive. A program that introduces an even wider range of failures and scenarios in the simulator might be a better way to prepare pilots.

The NTSB will also likely criticize the turnover that has resulted from commuter airlines that see themselves as a stepping stone to the majors. An airline that decides $16,000 a year is an acceptable salary for a pilot might have to rethink their strategy as the flying public recognizes the need to continue to attract the best pilots possible.

This accident could become a catalyst for a number of changes that have been needed for a while. Proper crew rest, adequate training, and upgraded safety warnings could be around the corner. Let’s hope so.

Do you have a question about something related to the pointy end of an airplane? Ask Kent and maybe he’ll use it for next Monday’s Plane Answers. Check out his other blog, Cockpit Chronicles and travel along with him at work.